tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post8181418193277851943..comments2023-04-11T09:05:32.675-07:00Comments on Tad's Happy Funtime: George Ought to HelpTad Callinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-58925574650294475372011-03-19T12:03:26.910-07:002011-03-19T12:03:26.910-07:00I'm sorry you aren't capable of communicat...I'm sorry you aren't capable of communicating clearly.Tad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-48276833434076958652011-03-19T10:27:37.710-07:002011-03-19T10:27:37.710-07:00"I do not owe [an apology], based on your sta..."I do not owe [an apology], based on your statement here:"<br /><br />I didn't claim otherwise. Yet again you're not paying attention to what I'm <i>actually</i> saying.<br /><br />"If I can't trust you to an honest answer, at your own insistance,"<br /><br />Again, I said nothing of the sort. As you would know if you were listening more carefully. You do not Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-34636352071963290662011-03-19T10:13:11.967-07:002011-03-19T10:13:11.967-07:00"Your apology for assuming dishonesty will be..."Your apology for assuming dishonesty will be a good assurance that you're still debating in good faith."<br /><br />I do not owe one, based on your statement here:<br /><br />"I don't believe that a person has a right to an answer, and an honest one, if they ask another person a question."<br /><br />If I can't trust you to an honest answer, at your own insistanceTad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-38966417245234885802011-03-19T08:51:16.143-07:002011-03-19T08:51:16.143-07:00"You seem to imply throughout this conversati..."You seem to imply throughout this conversation that monopolistic control and an exaggerated definition of force make almost any human interaction illegitimate"<br /><br />Certainly not. It's not necessary for me to exaggerate anything. If i drag you somewhere you don't want to go, that's force. If i hit you that's force. If I threaten to do these things to you if you Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-85275663523130442772011-03-19T08:35:35.271-07:002011-03-19T08:35:35.271-07:00"I find it interesting that you object to &qu..."I find it interesting that you object to "we" as a weasel word, when you keep using "force" in the same illegitimate manner."<br /><br />I explained why 'we' is inaccurate and misleading. I noted that you offered no objection to this. Can you point to any instance of my uses of the terms 'force' and 'threat of force' that are not factually Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-65693567842415774952011-03-19T08:08:59.231-07:002011-03-19T08:08:59.231-07:00I find it interesting that you object to "we&...I find it interesting that you object to "we" as a weasel word, when you keep using "force" in the same illegitimate manner. You also seem to have misrepresented yourself as a Libertarian - someone who believes in *limited* government, but nonetheless in government - while actually being someone who apparently does not believe in the legitimacy of any government. I find thisTad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-39692424280231663012011-03-16T06:00:25.372-07:002011-03-16T06:00:25.372-07:00"Except that most of those things are not &qu..."Except that most of those things are not "owned" by the state."<br /><br />I didn't claim that the state 'owned' these things (though i do think its arguable that it does). A clearer way to put it is that the state maintains monopolistic control over the areas I mentioned. To frame the same fact in a more familiar way: In the US there is not a free market in Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-76510322572502192162011-03-16T05:01:35.145-07:002011-03-16T05:01:35.145-07:00In the case of healthcare, the government clearly ...In the case of healthcare, the government clearly does NOT "own" healthcare. The creeping bureaucracy of the "health care management industry" owns our health care. Various corporations that sell insurance, drugs, and health services behave more like the bakery bandits than the State does. Personally, I think we're going to ruin our economy clinging to that artificial Tad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-83917056286331815212011-03-16T05:01:31.261-07:002011-03-16T05:01:31.261-07:00"...the US government, just like the bandits,..."...the US government, just like the bandits, maintains various coercive monopolies within the territory it claims to own: roads, healthcare, police, law."<br /><br />Except that most of those things are not "owned" by the state. Most roads in our country do belong to the community - public property being as artificial an idea as the concept of "private property." Tad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-7482384025406623622011-03-15T07:17:02.130-07:002011-03-15T07:17:02.130-07:00I'm glad you oppose the US property tax.
&quo...I'm glad you oppose the US property tax.<br /><br />"I don't think that "background situation" holds for the example of the U.S., because we don't have any compulsory citizenship requirements"<br /><br />The analogy holds because the US government, just like the bandits, maintains various coercive monopolies within the territory it claims to own: roads, healthcare,Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-14151700589954111262011-03-15T04:46:41.520-07:002011-03-15T04:46:41.520-07:00I don't think that "background situation&...I don't think that "background situation" holds for the example of the U.S., because we don't have any compulsory citizenship requirements - theoretically, you could choose never to participate in society, and hardly anyone would notice. As long as you didn't try to claim any benefits you haven't paid for, there would be no expectation of payment. (And even if you Tad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-19646521319501379822011-03-15T02:15:17.459-07:002011-03-15T02:15:17.459-07:00I think you're not yet taking into account the...I think you're not yet taking into account the background situation at the moment a contract is signed. Specifically, the way in which the presence of threats of force affect the validity of any contract entered into with the aggressor.<br /><br />I'm not in the states, but let's assume that I lived there and had signed various agreements including ones with words to the effect 'ITomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-58300865040608427442011-03-14T15:09:26.421-07:002011-03-14T15:09:26.421-07:00I'm looking at this question: "Can you be...I'm looking at this question: "Can you be more specific about the extra conditions you believe are required for this implicit agreement to come into being?" I assume you want more than a tautology (you're a citizen because this is where you are a citizen). Are you asking me to justify the claim that you, personally, as a citizen of the United States have agreed to abide by theTad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-89803760912722810672011-03-14T01:01:41.828-07:002011-03-14T01:01:41.828-07:00"This isn't as unclear as you seem to wan..."This isn't as unclear as you seem to want to make it: either you're a citizen or you're not. If you're a citizen, you have rights and obligations"<br /><br />Even though it may seem clear to you, it's not so to me, and you're still avoiding answering the central question.<br /><br />"These scenarios you're throwing at me don't really have anything Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-92216787820735729362011-03-13T18:23:42.945-07:002011-03-13T18:23:42.945-07:00This isn't as unclear as you seem to want to m...This isn't as unclear as you seem to want to make it: either you're a citizen or you're not. If you're a citizen, you have rights and obligations. If you're not happy about the rights or obligations, there is a process in place to change them. You can always strike out to seek your fortune (my friend Emily suggests Somalia as a great example of a "stateless society&Tad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-48789936622462880842011-03-13T11:53:16.763-07:002011-03-13T11:53:16.763-07:00"And I'm confused by your insistence on a..."And I'm confused by your insistence on a definition for citizenship."<br /><br />I didn't ask for a definition of citizenship. I asked, specifically, for clarification about the conditions under which the 'agreement' you believe exists, between a person living on the land claimed by a certain group, and the group itself, comes into existence. I'm still trying to Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-5917162478820431642011-03-13T07:30:01.013-07:002011-03-13T07:30:01.013-07:00Two things:
No one is making claims on the land ...Two things: <br /><br />No one is making claims on the land you live on. They are claiming payment for services rendered. Conflating the two is as fallacious as calling fees and penalties for failing to hold up your end of the agreement "violence".<br /><br />And I'm confused by your insistence on a definition for citizenship. Assuming you are in the U.S., you are either born Tad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-44370866023579383222011-03-13T01:05:04.945-08:002011-03-13T01:05:04.945-08:00You said:
"The difference is that you don'...You said:<br />"The difference is that you don't have any basis for making that arbitrary demand on me, while local governments do have some basis for their claims; usually having to do with providing services that aren't practical to offer on a "free market" basis."<br /><br />You seem to be implying that it's not simply having the opportunity to leave, and not Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-19104273596396903872011-03-12T16:35:15.742-08:002011-03-12T16:35:15.742-08:00Oops - I didn't answer your direct question:
...Oops - I didn't answer your direct question:<br /><br />"Do you believe that _you_ have tacitly made this agreement, or that everyone who lives in (assuming for the sake of simplicity that you're based in the US) the US has?"<br /><br />I am in the U.S., and I do believe that everyone living here has chosen to be here. (Or has had that choice made for them by their parents, I Tad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-20077879509136387472011-03-12T16:31:09.877-08:002011-03-12T16:31:09.877-08:00The difference is that you don't have any basi...The difference is that you don't have any basis for making that arbitrary demand on me, while local governments do have some basis for their claims; usually having to do with providing services that aren't practical to offer on a "free market" basis.<br /><br />In our county, property taxes are assessed in order to pay for sewage, waste hauling, road maintenance, schools, etc. Tad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-26786860551349870482011-03-12T13:34:40.050-08:002011-03-12T13:34:40.050-08:00"So, yeah, in an over-simplified nutshell, I ..."So, yeah, in an over-simplified nutshell, I do believe that living here in our open-bordered society is a tacit agreement to live by the rules."<br /><br />A couple of questions about this:<br /><br />Do you believe that _you_ have tacitly made this agreement, or that everyone who lives in (assuming for the sake of simplicity that you're based in the US) the US has?<br /><br />Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-85468409100597549812011-03-12T06:34:15.691-08:002011-03-12T06:34:15.691-08:00Thanks for your thoughtful comments, too!
I lef...Thanks for your thoughtful comments, too! <br /><br />I left in a lot of simple assumptions about very complicated concepts, and this comment box is probably not the best venue for exploring them. <br /><br />I've struggled with the ideas of Libertarianism for a couple of decades. While I'm omitting a lot of real answers to your specific questions when I say this, I think it would be aTad Callinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06972140054283279414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-9394461731825251862011-03-12T02:47:07.292-08:002011-03-12T02:47:07.292-08:00Oh, one more thing:
"but it is a nice, conci...Oh, one more thing:<br /><br />"but it is a nice, concise presentation of things that many people have said to me over the years, trying to defend the morality of selfishness."<br /><br />Your comment quoted above isn't simply a less flattering way of framing the video's message, it's a fundamental misunderstanding. You're conflating two separate questions. <br /><br />Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699577093353725064.post-53303540493918534952011-03-12T01:01:37.732-08:002011-03-12T01:01:37.732-08:00Thanks for your thoughtful response to the 'Ge...Thanks for your thoughtful response to the 'George' video.<br /><br />I'm in agreement with you almost until the end. I'll focus on the disagreements:<br /><br />"The crime is not "keeping your money" - the crime is committing fraud by either not filing at all or by lying on your return."<br /><br />I don't believe that a person has a right to an answer, Tomasz Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463512071229137444noreply@blogger.com